Wednesday, March 21, 2012

OOG money for IG items

So it has recently come to my attention that not only National but Chapters can now sell magic items for oog money. I guess this is a 2 year trial period for this type of thing.

I for one am against the buying and selling of ig items for oog money. It retards the economy and separates the haves from the have nots. Therefore, I am going to do a test to see how broken this is. I am going to buy all the magic items that I can, as fast as I can and see how many I can get. So far, in the two days I have been doing this, I have purchased 6 and am only out 200 bucks. You are only allowed to have 1 for yourself but can purchase as many as you want for "gifts". My question is, what is to stop people from buying a bunch and just use them all? Wonder How many I can get with 1200 bucks? hmmm...

What do you guys think? How do you think this will affect your game?


  1. Oh, and the items purchased this way are 1 year, 3 effects not including render or greater extension.

  2. This just utterly enrages me. I totally understand that chapters need money, and that they are, after all, businesses.

    Here are the potential problems and concerns I have regarding this:

    1. Allows people with money to gain an advantage in the game, over those who are unable to afford the items
    2. There will be some chapters that sell them for much more than others, unbalancing the cost actually associated with them.
    3. It detracts from those with formal magic and lowers the efficacy of formal components
    4. It creates an unbalanced in-game atmosphere, where plot teams/chapters will have trouble figuring out the current "in-game economy".....right now National has a limit of treasure distribution, so you can calculate based on that what is going out in your chapter.
    5. Makes magic items chapters do put out much less useful,creates significant less excitement about them
    6. It seems like it is against the spirit of the rules...thought it specifically said you couldn't? (I might be completely wrong on this)
    7. They are unrestricted. If you can sell an r-tarded amount as a chapter, why is there a restriction of MI you can put in at an event?
    8. It's impossible to track.
    9. There doesn't seem to be a cohesive plan for cost? (I could be wrong on this again)....I.E. one chapter could sell an item for 10.00, another the same item for 50.00. Also, with their seeming inexpensive cost, I see the game flooded with items.

    These are only a couple of the potential issues that I foresee. I recognize some arguments are more valid than others.

    There are also some benefits:
    1. Chapters get more money to put in to props/making the chapter better.
    2. Players don't have to fight/squabble over MI they find.
    3. If you need something, you can purchase it, without having to track down a caster.
    4. So far, the reps going out with them are pretty cool. If you don't know how to make a sword, you get one with the purchase.

    My .2, what does everyone else think?


  3. Everything Jenn said.

  4. BTW, I would like to make it clear that I am not getting on the case of any chapter that has embraced this policy---they are simply following guidelines set by national.

    Just wanted to clarify...


  5. Silence is a viable effect. Your argument is invalid.

    Also it's a statting issue.

  6. statting issue?

  7. Mark Henry ~MariusMarch 21, 2012 at 4:20 PM

    I believe I read a rule in the policy that says 1 item per character. While technically it would be hard to police the items without a random check from a marshal it would be against the rules/spirit of the rules and land you in trouble if found out. You could in fact gift said items to your group to make your group more powerful.

    Once plot knows how many items you have they can adjust mods to that. In meantime you may be underwhelmed with the difficulty which would be more your fault then theirs unless you notified them of all your items.

    Personally I like to earn my magic items, because they come with a cool story. I'm not going to knock anyone who buys one though cause they are improving my game. It would be cool if they got with a plot/staff person to work out how they got the item. Something simple like you killed an ogre chieftain of clan whatnot to get his ax, nothing too crazy.

  8. From Joe on the National Forum, please note that you can also buy up to 100 components.

    The Nero office has just started selling magic item and formal component phys-reps for out of game cash.

    Thanks to some feedback we changed it to sell only items that expire 1 year from purchase, so that 2 year items can be distributed via the game and made by players.

    This will be a test that lasts about 2 years – through 2012 and 2013.

    If we stop the program, it will end December 31, 2013, though all items sold will still be good until they expire.

    These are the draft Guidelines;

    1. The Nero office and NERO Chapters will sell Game Phys-Reps for Cash Money to;
    a. Improve the game atmosphere; and
    b. Improve revenue generation to increase overall customer base.

    2. The phys-reps will include the magic item or equipment tag for use in-game;

    3. NERO Members buying better phys-reps will improve everyone’s game.

    4. This will Add Phys-Reps to the Game Without Increasing Event Production Costs.

    5. Magic Items Phys-Rep with Effects.
    a. Jewelry, formal magic components and magic items.

    6. Production Equipment
    a. Potions
    b. Scrolls
    c. Alchemy
    d. Armor
    e. Weapons

    7. Under the following PURCHASE limits (We want everyone to have a good time but we also do not want our storylines, mysteries and adversaries to be ‘walked over’ because of an over abundance of formal magic components, production equipment and magic items);
    a. Absolutely must have nice phys-rep for the item.
    b. Please, no selling just the tag without verification of a proper phys-rep.
    c. Phys-reps for swords, armor, shields, etc. are usually made by the buyer, and therefore should be made in-game and not be purchasable for cash.
    d. Maximum Two Magic Items per character per year purchased with cash and/or Goblin points.
    e. No Triangle Trade – i.e. Purchasing items to give to your friend who will give it to your character.
    f. Purchased Magic Items always expire in 1 year or less, and must have 3 or fewer effects.
    i. National prefers that 5 effect items be made by players in-game.
    ii. National prefers to reserve 2 year durations for Treasure Distribution and player made items.
    e. Maximum One-Hundred Formal Magic Components purchased with cash and they must have a phys-rep or they cannot be sold. The idea is to re-use the phys-rep after its purchased.
    f. We will add a field that identifies the item as ‘purchased’ so that it is inherently not steal-able.
    g. Purchased items are not spirit linked to a player character, but cannot be stolen and are ‘not left behind’ when a pc permanently dies.
    h. Found-on-the-ground ‘purchased items’ are not usable by the finder, and should be turned in so we can get the item back to the player.
    i. Buying gifts for other people is fine, and encouraged. ‘Gifting’ should not be used to circumvent the limits.

    Thus far, we have sold 3 magic items. One person bought two items, one for himself and one for his friend, because - I am paraphrasing the buyer - he and his friend haven’t been able to get a magic item in-game after playing for 14 months.

    I have not asked the latest buyer ‘why’ yet but will keep you informed.

  9. They can also not be stole....but aren't spirit locked/linked.

  10. You can view the actual policy here:

  11. I agree totally with what Jenn posted.

    Imho, it seems incredibly sinister.
    Where are the funds going to go to?
    What third party is in charge of tracking funds?
    How are you going to keep the mass acquireing of items ingame?
    What are you going to do when half of the populace is disenchanted with nero because it has suddenly become a rich mans sport?
    How are you going to keep poor players on an equal gain playing field with those who have money?

    Really, this is the most immoral and self destructive policy I've yet seen come into play.
    /mourn Nero.
    The turning point is now.

  12. Mark Henry ~MariusMarch 21, 2012 at 4:47 PM

    Not steal-able irks me. You can kill me with the item but if I win I don't get the item... If they want it to be spirit locked fine, do that and make it count against your spirit effect limit.

    "I don't always kill a PC, but when I do... I want his items"

    - Mark

  13. Reading the rules, it seems to me that you can sell tags but not phys reps.

    7. Under the following PURCHASE limits (We want everyone to have a good time but we also do not want our storylines, mysteries and adversaries to be ‘walked over’ because of an over abundance of formal magic components, production equipment and magic items);
    a. Absolutely must have nice phys-rep for the item.
    b. Please, no selling just the tag without verification of a proper phys-rep.
    c. Phys-reps for swords, armor, shields, etc. are usually made by the buyer, and therefore should be made in-game and not be purchasable for cash.

    That seems to me to be saying that you can sell the tag to someone who already has a phys rep, but selling the phys reps themselves is against the new rules. Am I correct?

  14. So here's a question.

    Say you roll me, and I perm. You can't steal the item.

    Soo... it just lays there on the ground for two years? Because no one can, inexplicably, figure out how to pick it up?

    National throws it on the ground?

  15. Ben, if you give that bitch 1,200 dollars I will shoot her on principle.

  16. Anyways:
    1) I don't have a deep problem with the idea in principle, but the test as written is, frankly, appalling.
    1.a) I don't have many magic items (I now have two, one of which is 5/ever) and it hasn't destroyed my game. Other people run around with all their slots full of five-effect items, and that hasn't ruined my game either. If the chapters want to make a little extra cash by selling magic items, I'm OK with that.
    1.b) While I don't have a problem with the idea theoretically, I'm opposed to it practically. Sold items can't come out of treasure distribution: that really does screw the poorer player. We can't say, "you bought an item, so you aren't eligible for getting one IG," since that's really, really stupid.

    2) If, however, this is going to happen, I'd recommend a few guidelines:
    2.a) All sold items should be LCO. This a) prevents National from selling items, which I'm fine with, and b) eliminates the possibility of pricing wars between chapters.
    2.b) Pricing guidelines need to be set.
    2.c) Vague language like "you absolutely must have a nice phys-rep . . ." is absurd. If the goal is to improve the overall production quality of the game, than unspecific wording is the enemy. Honestly, unspecific wording is basically always an enemy. What I consider a "nice phys-rep" and what some else considers a "nice phys-rep" may be miles apart.
    2.d) National should not, under any circumstances, be selling items, under the same logic that all items should be LCO.

    Although I don't know that I'd go so far as to classify it as sinister or immoral, I do think that it's probably a net negative for the game.

  17. Old News.

    BTW, please be aware that a lot of stuff in that post isn't really legitimate national rulings. Chapter's can't sell items - only national. This prevents any kind of bidding wars and allows national to control the number of items sold.

    The stuff about unstealable is bupkis. There's no way they can mark it as unstealable on the item. Good luck enforcing it.

    Also, 3 effect items are trash, and most of the ones they offer are crappy. The only one that would really affect PvP is the death pendant.


    National will enforce selling a phys rep, with the exception for weapons, armor, or shields. Those items are very personalized, and spending money on a sword that swings for shit or a shield that doesn't cover your shoulder would make the customer angry.

    Truthfully, this isn't a "the sky is falling" moment. I could care less. No one purchasing an item that gives them 3 flame bolts is going to make my game more or less fun.

    Finally, I would caution any chapter that has decided to start selling these items - Joe's post was on the general forum, which doesn't actually constitute national policy. Only posts made on the announcement page are legitimate decrees. There's still a lot of talk on the chapter owner's boards, indicating that details have not been worked out.

    However, if you still want to go for it despite this fact, rock on.

  18. I'm confused....there are chapters selling things like +3 swords....3/day items, etc...

    Can they do that? No?

    Thanks (and love you honey)


    1. While it's a little complicated...

      The answer is no. Chapters should not be selling items.

      While they might not get suspended for it because of that post, I think there's a fair chance that those items may disappear.

  19. @Bill So Chapters should, in fact, NOT be selling magic items? This is so confusing. @D jurns no worries, I don't think I am. Not THAT much money anyways. @Jenn I agree with everything you have said there.

  20. It's... Complicated.

    As are most Joe Policies. There was no approval process. He just threw that shit out there. Hilarity ensues!

    You could probably justify keeping the tags, but it's definitely going to be weird and I expect people will steal it anyways. There are no rules anywhere that tell people that they can't.

  21. Comedy gold my friend. Comedy gold.

  22. If there was established prices and you bought them through your local chapter and they were LCO. I could approve. As it stands, I do not.

  23. The sad thing about the draft policy is that it's a net loss for chapters for cash or purchased donations when compared to what the rules committe proposed. A decent item under the rules committee proposal would cost 2000 goblin points or more, which at a generous $1 = 10 goblin point conversion would cost you $200 for an item. Under the current proposal most decent magic items are costing $40-$60 and some of that cost has to cover the cost of the phyrep itself.

  24. LCO items are never the answer, IMO. They just serve to isolate the chapter that issues them. The local players don't want to leave, because they'll have less power, and travelers don't want to go there because the locals have an unfair advantage.

    If it's worth doing, it's worth being unrestricted.

  25. I totally agree with Anonymous regarding donations vs. purchase.

    Noah, it's worthwhile if you don't travel. Could always do that it costs more money for an UNR item, or you have to pay a small fee to have it travel. Or simply buy an item from that chapter. I think the idea behind keeping it LCO is that it is much easier to track and those chapters will be able to keep track them easily, and if they don't want to participate, they won't have to and won't be affected by it.

    The most obvious thing to me, from reading the blog and the national forum (still waiting for approval to post, lol, I finally resubmitted a thing to get access (yesterday) after 2 months) is that there are very few people behind the idea of it, especially in its current state, and it seems like there needs to be some continued, significant discussion before we move forward with it. I wish Joe would take it down until it is properly reviewed and discussed, and put in a more official format. It's obvious a lot of the possibilities weren't thought of (not able to steal them? can't leave it behind when you die?)...


  26. Doesn't bother me at all. Every game (WoW, LoL, ect) has moved towards a RMT business model.

    1. "Every [dying] game has moved toward a RMT business model."


  27. As a Chapter Owner, I was quite confused when I started seeing posts that seemed to indicate that I could sell magic items.

  28. @Russ, Really? Youre going with the "Big corporations who only want to suck money from their player base do it.. so why shouldnt we?" approach? -.- failsauce. Nero should be better than that. As a player, I expect better than that.

  29. This is a case to me of saying that because doing something wrong is something everyone can now do, it was OK for me to do it first.

    It also pretty much throws up NERO's collective hands on balance and says "screw it, give us money, we give up" whether a chapter wants to or not.

  30. Much like D&D 4th Edition, NERO has now embraced the "LARPing as MMO" model, where advancement is quick but meaningless, and it will now be easier to throw more money into a character ("micro-transactions") than it is to actually play the game long-term to earn goals and objectives to advance, all platitudes to the contrary. (I am aware of at least one chapter that, in the face of National pricing guidelines, has already passed word of mouth that they will UNDERCUT ANY PRICE for items bought in this fashion.)

    My prediction for what comes next? Free to play, must pay on a sliding scale for XP; the higher the level, the more expensive your blanket cost. They'll make a fortune... and drive away a LOT of classic gamers in the process.

  31. Yeah, I wont be participating or volunteering my time if it turns to that.

  32. @Sarah: So businesses are no longer allowed to use successful models to make money? None of these companies including NERO, are "sucking money from their player base". They do it because they know people will buy it. At the end of the day, NERO is a business, and Joe is trying to make money like any other gaming company. Do I care random_player_23876 is running around with multiple 5 effect items he bought? I could care less. NERO is so saturated with MIs this will have zero impact on the game.